Joe Harroz: Hi, I'm Joe Harroz, President of the University of Oklahoma. I'm going to welcome you to our Conversations with the President. This platform gives me the chance to talk to some of the great people who make OU so special. Make sure you are subscribed to Conversations with the President, and you'll be the first to know when new episodes are released. Let's get started. Hey, welcome to the show. Before we bring in today's all star guests, I want to tell you about something new we're adding to the podcast, and I couldn't be more excited. This podcast is all about conversations, and I'd love for you to be a part of them, so we're launching a new segment called, and this is pretty clever, hang tight, Hey Harroz. I'll spend a few minutes answering questions from our listeners, which likely includes my mom. Whether you're a student, faculty, staff, alum, or a fan of OU, this is your chance to join the conversation by asking about what's happening on campus, where we're headed in the future, or even the questions that are just for fun, as I judge fun. That'll be the big filter there. Whatever it is, I'd love to hear from you. You can submit your questions anytime too, and I'm sure you'll get this the first time, link.ou.edu/HeyHarroz. No one's ever misspelled my last name, so that should be pretty easy. After each episode, we'll choose a few to read and answer on air. I'm really looking forward to hearing from you, and learning what's on your mind. I want to share these conversations with you and with the listeners. Head to the link, link.ou.edu/HeyHarroz to send in your questions, and be sure to tune in next time to see if it's featured. Now, let's kick off, and that's a super funny pun. Let's kick off today's episode. It's the start of the Fall semester here at OU, and the campus is absolutely electric. It is the fifth straight year we've had a record class. It is now 31% growth in our freshman class in three years, by far largest college freshman classes in the history of our state. This year, we have over 6,250 freshmen who have shown up on campus. It is stunning. It is exciting, and it is very appropriate given our topic today. We are recording this episode, heading into the Michigan game, and the excitement could not be greater. I'm thrilled to be joined today by two top of the pyramid leaders, who are at the center of all of it, guiding OU athletics through one of the most exciting times in our history. The first one I want to introduce, who is dressed in classic Castiglione Joesy fashion, looking amazing. I want to give him an introduction, but I think everyone on, at least this continent, knows who Joe Castiglione is. He became a fixture starting in 1998. Joe Castiglione joined us as the Athletic Director. He is one of my dearest friends in the world. He's been a colleague all of those years, and we're thrilled to have him, and we're thrilled that you're here.
Joe C: Thank you very much.
Joe Harroz: We're at a moment where you just this summer announced that you're ready to make a transition when it's right for OU, and head into your next phase at OU. You're not leaving OU, but just moving out of the AD role, and we're thrilled to welcome you. The statistics, I can't list them all, but over half of our national championships in our 130+ year history were earned under Joe Castiglione, 26 national championships, 117 conference titles. They go on and on. He is the Dean of Athletic Directors in the country, and he is one of the most high character people I know. Thanks for joining us, Joe.
Joe C: Thank you, Joe. It's always fun to be with you, literally.
Joe Harroz: We had fun over the years.
Joe C: We could do a podcast on that by itself.
Joe Harroz: No question. Someone who just joined us in February, but already feels like I've known him a lot longer, is our other guest, Jim Nagy. Jim, you've likely heard about him, he's pioneering in college athletics with the University of Oklahoma. The first true professional style General Manager role that's occurred, certainly among the A4 or the top four athletic conferences. His resume is replete with excellence. Most recently spent seven years as Executive Director of the Senior Bowl, bringing 18 years of NFL scouting experience, been a part of six Super Bowls, only won four of those, which is ridiculous in those years, with rings from the Packers, the Patriots, and the Seahawks, and doing something I can't wait for you to hear about. A lot of folks talk about having a General Manager in college athletics today, but no one is doing it the way we are and with the excellence that you've brought along with the team that you've brought in. Looking forward to talking to you, and welcome to the show.
Jim Nagy: Thanks, Joe.
Joe Harroz: It's the 2025 season. We've been waiting for this. There's a lot of excitement, and we've got Michigan. By the way, if it helps at all, Jim is a University of Michigan graduate. How would you characterize your excitement about this game, Jim?
Jim Nagy: I knew that was going to come on. No, nobody's more excited for this game than me, and no one wants to beat Michigan more than I do. I'm really excited. Got family coming in. My 80-year-old parents are coming in for the game, really excited. Two iconic brands in college football.
Joe Harroz: Absolutely.
Jim Nagy: Those two uniforms on the field together for the first time since 1976, I believe. It's going to be electric in that stadium.
Joe Harroz: It's going to be so much fun. I cannot wait. Joe, this is our second season in the SEC, what makes you so excited about this season?
Joe C: I think every one of our teams have made investments of improving themselves, whether it's the roster, adjusting something that could invest in the future of the sport. I am so excited to watch every one of the sports that we sponsor because they are all better. When we had the opportunity to join the SEC, we knew exactly what we were signing up for. People asked that question of us, as you'll remember, do you know what you're getting into? We said, not only do we know, we aren't just joining the SEC, we're running into it. We know the level of competition has been against the best there is in all the college sports, regardless of the sport. We're excited to be able to take this version, the 25, 26 year group of Sooners, and all these sports into the next year, and compete against the best not only in the conference, but nationally.
Joe Harroz: I love it. When I first started in this role six years ago, one of the first conversations that you and I had is when you pulled me aside and said, for this to work, for us to continue to compete at the highest level and to remain financially in that small group of those where students don't foot the bill for athletics, we're going to have to make a move, and that the logical move was the SEC, and to be here with you now and the vision that you laid out in the journey that has been is exciting. I've got to admit, I'm pretty excited too. Let's talk about the North Oval. There are so many fun experiences that are laid out with the fans. Tell us what you expect to see on the new tailgating experience.
Joe C: As we've been saying, the Oval is open.
Joe Harroz: The Oval is open.
Joe C: I think, to your credit, a response to the explosion of tailgating all across our campus. We have some areas around the stadium, but people have found nooks and crannies and all different places to set up tailgates, and they're running out of space because other spaces weren't open to tailgating. You put together that committee to recognize how we can grow it and put it in an iconic place that is historically known as Parrington Oval, but the North Oval. It's free, open to the public. If you haven't been in the Oval, you know there's a road around it, so getting your tailgate supplies to set it up and move your car somewhere else is going to be easy. It's obviously right there close to Campus Corner. I think it's going to be exciting new game day tradition.
Joe Harroz: It should be exciting. This is a Friday, and it's fun seeing everybody's set up. We're also going to have College Game Day here again for the second year in a row on the South Oval, with the Bizzell Library as the iconic backdrop to that, so it's awfully exciting. Let's talk about the nine-game schedule. I know all of those that follow college football even loosely know that after a lot of years of thinking about it, we're now moving to a nine-game conference schedule. Joe, could you talk a bit about it? Then, Jim, could you let us know your thoughts on how this impacts how you construct the team along with Coach Venables?
Joe C: It's still very fresh news, if you will, since it's only been approved for the last few weeks. But it's something that the conference, and you as a member of the Presidents and Chancellors Cabinet, us as ADs, and the coaches all involved in talking about what's best for the future of the SEC. We debated the current structure of eight conference games, and staying with that as well as what the move to nine would mean. It wasn't like the SEC wasn't already tough as it was set up, so we added another difficult game to everybody's schedule. But the idea of what we need to do about the future, recognizing what fans are looking for, what they're willing to invest their money in, we're asking them to do so many different things, that competitive schedules are a big part of their calculus, so whether they're going to come to games or not. For us, it's a great balance. We're one of the, I guess you could say, four schools that play a neutral site game. We are used to a nine-game conference schedule back in the Big 12 days. That gives us four conference games at home every year, regardless of whether we're the designated home or away team in the Red River, and same for Texas. Florida, Georgia is the other neutral site game, same for them. Joe, one thing, Jim, you'll know this too, that they're working on is they've identified two critical analytic companies that deal with strength of schedule that work directly with the pro leagues like the NFL, and specifically, one of them does the NFL schedule, to aggregate all of the last four years of data to create the most balanced schedule. You've heard how we're going to create the options for opponents. Three of the opponents that we have on our schedule will be permanent every year. Obviously, that starts with Texas. People have heard others. I'll close by saying that whatever you've heard before, wipe the slate clean. I don't even know who they are. You can speculate.
Joe Harroz: Can we get a Joe Castiglione prediction on the other two?
Joe C: I think one of them, besides Texas, will be regional, most likely in a state contiguous, I bet you don't use that word very often on the pod, to the state of Oklahoma. I think that will be one. Then the other is anybody's guess. Three permanents meaning they will be on our schedule every year. The others will rotate, giving each conference school a chance to play on everybody's campus, each other's campus, if you will, at least once every four years. I think that's a big change for the SEC, but one that is not only great for our league, but great for fans.
Joe Harroz: Sitting in the room that I sit in among the other college presidents and chancellors, it's a win across the board for fans. The 10th game has to be against an A4 opponent.
Joe C: That's right. It makes it very competitive. When you're talking about what's best for college football, 100%, every conversation has to be keep the regular season strong. We'll figure out all these opportunities in post-season, the regular season is the most important thing for college football, and that enhanced it.
Joe Harroz: That's a critical component of how we need to think about a long and sustainable future for college sports. Jim, we just saw a masterclass in how you sidestep a question around those three schools we're going to be playing against. Texas, a contiguous one, and then another. That's why Joe Castiglione is the best in the business. He didn't get cornered there. He didn't take the suckers question.
Jim Nagy: Joe's successor has a lot of pressure, that rotating power four game. I say Bedlam and Nebraska every other year.
Joe Harroz: That'll create some activity right there.
Jim Nagy: A little pressure on the guy filling your shoes after you.
Joe C: Maybe I could draft one of those games at Home and Home before they get to whoever that is.
Joe Harroz: That's awesome. Jim, it's been fun watching you launch into this. As Joe and I talked about, how do we create the first true GM organization that is pro style in college sports? I know Joe knew a lot more than I did, I had an idea of what that would be structurally, but to see you come into it, bring in the team of four core and the full team you have around you, and to watch you execute is truly stunning professionalism. Could you describe for the listeners, first, a quick primer on what makes us unique in college sports, what you do, and then I'd love for you to talk about, specifically with the question like, does moving from eight games to nine plus an A4, does that change how you think about and evaluate players?
Jim Nagy: Sure. That's the million dollar question. What do you do? What's the General Manager in college do? I will say what makes this structure different, and I credit the two of you and Randall Stephenson.
Joe Harroz: Randall, for sure.
Jim Nagy: For having the vision for it, is that it's more of a split structure in terms of scouting and coaching, very similar to the NFL. When we met with families on official visits, trying to sell this thing to them, where's the value for the players in this? You look at the National Football League, and there's 32 teams that are owned by 32 billionaires, and they're billionaires because they're smart business people. They look at efficiencies and the way to do things, and they have this structure that we have here at OU now. You looked at college football prior to you guys making this decision to go in this direction. They were all doing it completely different, the same way that college football had been handled for 150 years, so however many years we've been playing college football. The key thing for us is we're working hand in hand with the coaches.
Jim Nagy: We're really there to help them. These jobs have gotten so big for the coaches. Again, for bringing it back to what the value to the players is and to the families is rather than the coaches sitting at their desk all day watching player after player, it's hard to find guys good enough to play at Oklahoma. Jim Nagy: It's hard to find good SEC players. There's a lot of wasted time for those coaches. That's on our staff now, and to your point, I'm just thrilled with the staff we assembled, really excited. It's been such a fun build because we're really building this thing from scratch, and then just getting on the same page and really creating that cohesion with the coaches because this is a departure from where it's been. No, that's been a lot of fun, too. In terms of the SEC schedule, all I can say is I hope that the people running the college football playoff do really factor in strength of schedule because, again, a ninth SEC game that's a big deal, rather than playing no shots at some of our opponents this year. But you're playing another SEC team. That's a heavy lift, but we want that. Our goals are lofty. We want to win the SEC. If you win the SEC, then you're in the contention for the National Championship first things first. But if you're going to contend for the SEC title, you got to be really good. You got to beat people. It shouldn't matter who's on your schedule. That's where our mind is, but we just hope they factor that in when it comes to the playoff.
Joe Harroz: In college football, I think we all agree, will be benefited if they do factor that in. The NFL is the model that shows that you want to reward highly competitive top-tier teams playing games that are exciting, and I heard one person describe it as if a game has a 20-point spread or more, it's not something people really want to watch except for the most die hard fans, which doesn't allow college sports to flourish. To me, that's really interesting.
Jim Nagy: To Joe's point, it's about the fans. This is one more game that's going to be great for our fans, and our fans show up for every game. We've sold it out about 26 years in a row, the Palace, we've sold it out.
Joe C: This next game is going to be 161.
Jim Nagy: One sixty-one.
Joe Harroz: That's absurd.
Jim Nagy: Our fans are passionate. They're going to show up regardless, but to have another strong scale, it's great for them. Great for our fans.
Joe Harroz: You raised it, and we talk about it all the time. When Josie and I asked Randall to come in prior to your hiring, I think we're both proud of that, Joe. It's been great to have someone who has seen so much but doesn't have the 30 years of experience that you and I have, me way to a lesser extent, but 30 years from my different chairs and 30 years from the heart of athletics in college athletics and allowed us to find you, Jim, and I think that consistent with what you've done over time, Josie, that's being cutting edge and evolving into a landscape that's rapidly changing. As we think about this rapidly changed and changing landscapes and I think it bears both those words are significant because it has changed and it is changing. Tell us, Joe, about your thoughts on what does revenue sharing look like right now, and what do you think it does through your unique lens, what's the state of revenue sharing right now? How does that impact, and what does that look like over the next several years?
Joe C: People won't want to hear this, but I don't believe we're sharing enough of it. People are going to think of that as purely a budget item, and I think if we study anything, we just have to look at what the professional leagues have gone through as they evolved over several decades. I can remember certain players standing up for the right to be treated fairly, and it was difficult. Those conversations were brutal. In fact, sometimes it would lead to isolating them from the rest of the team. But they stood up because there needed to be some balance in between what the owners had as a team and a franchise, and how the revenues were being generated, and the players not getting a fair share or not having the health care or things of that nature. Now, fortunately, college athletics has evolved greatly over the last 12-15 years. Right now, it's the best time it's ever been for a college athlete ever. But this year, just barely two months ago, we crossed a threshold that has always been talked about but never done, and that's sharing revenue with athletes from the university. We went through a time where it was synthetically dispersed.
Joe Harroz: The word synthetically, we use as a way to make ourselves feel better.
Joe C: Exactly. All under the name of the acronym. But I really believe to your point that we obviously need to be challenged and creative and innovative to drive revenue from new sources. Candidly, we're probably squeezing the most if not all, out of the current resources we have. We have to add to it in different ways, and there are creative strategies for that. But the long-term play here is to get to a better balance between the right shared number and their institutions. You and I have talked about. I personally continue to believe that the only way we're going to solve this is some form of a collectively bargained solution where both sides, if you will, we're not adverse, but we got to come together and find the right path forward so that athletes feel like they have the fair share and institutions know what that is. It's probably going to be difficult for both sides to get to the compromise, and they won't feel like it's perfect, but it will be a sustainable future because for college athletics to thrive in the new world, as you know, Joe, let me tell you something you don't already know, it has to be a capped environment. We don't have unlimited resources. We have to find a path to sustainability, and still, I believe, keep the connection to Higher Ed, because that's our Northstar. We don't have to be a pro league duplicate. We have to understand there are pro characteristics to our world, but still we're about the education, because as Jim knows, he's been evaluating these players and valuing them. Unless the NFL or the NBA expands by some big number of teams, which they're not going to do because they have their own revenue sharing formulas. There's still only two or 3% of our athletes a year that are going to go from the college experience to a pro experience. We don't know which ones they are. We still have to be in a position to develop people to be the best versions of themselves for whatever it is that they will face once their athletic career is over.
Joe Harroz: I gave you a hard time about the hedge on the three schools being our permanent rotation, but I got to give you credit for being bold and honest in these statements, and those are big statements that you've just made. One that we have to, like the NFL has learned, have schools that can compete in a way that creates a level of parity so that everybody has a shot. It simply isn't just the highest bidder. Some folks would challenge that. I agree with you. We've talked about this at great length. The second thing is the idea of a collective bargaining agreement. Many don't want to get their head around that, but when you look at the rest of sports where players get paid, that is the only viable, successful model, and I think it's important that you said that, and I personally couldn't agree with you more, and I appreciate you saying that, Jim, you are the most recent entrant from the professional side into the college side. You've lived at that bridge for seven years with the Senior Bowl between the NFL and college football. As you have now been in the deep end of this since February, and have been living it, when you look forward 3-5 years, what do you believe the next major change is that we're going to see in college sports?
Jim Nagy: It might just be a CBA with the things you were talking about.
Joe Harroz: CBA is a collective bargaining.
Jim Nagy: Collective bargaining. I think some form of that. For me, right now, in terms of challenges with the current structure and system, it would be a couple of things. One, the lack of transparency. I have friends in the NFL that call me asking about how I like the job. I said, it's great. Love it. Love everything about it. I'm like, but for you guys, you go out in the marketplace, and you want a starting left tackle, you know the range of what you're going to be paying for that left tackle. Right now, the lack of transparency, you're all over the place when it comes to some of these negotiations, and then the other thing is just talking with some contemporaries right now in college football, at least, I can't speak to the other sports. The cost of acquisition out of high school is out of line. If there's some rookie pay scale, like a freshman cap, if you will, because we heard coaches at the different media days, not just SEC, Big 10. I know one school in the Big 10. Some coaches have talked about they've lost their locker room because they're paying all the young guys. The cost of acquisition is so high that then your veterans, your juniors, and seniors are finding out what their freshmen are making. Again, there's a lot of chemistry things. There's a lot of things you have to be mindful of. We had to walk away from some players in this 2026 recruiting cycle because the numbers just got so far line. We have to be mindful of our chemistry, which Coach Venables has done an unbelievable job. He and the staff have built an unbelievable culture here at OU. In my position, I can screw that up real quickly if our salaries get out of whack. Those are a couple areas that I think we could clean this thing up if that's the question. But I do. I think there's change on the horizon. We'll see.
Joe Harroz: Good. I just got a signal from our incredible producers that I might be taking way too long because I enjoy this conversation way too much. I'm going to try and shorten this a bit. We could have this conversation, and we've had this conversation for hours, and so let's move from more the technical, it's interesting. One of the great balances is when we talk with Coach Venables, he's always reminding us, hey, yes, I'm all in on this approach, but don't forget this is about growing boys into the men that you really want to be, and we want to have. We have the SOUL Mission. When we get past the dollars, and I'd ask each of you to give the 22nd year synopsis of what we tell players, what we believe in that we express to players about what makes Oklahoma special. Let's start with you Jim, and then, Joe, let's see if you can pick it up from there.
Jim Nagy: Our biggest sell is family. We've got over 40 four and five star players coming in for this Michigan game tomorrow.
Joe Harroz: Say that again. We have how many?
Jim Nagy: Over 40. I think we have 37 four stars and five, five stars coming in for the game, and that is the key for us is getting them here to Norman because you do, you feel it. I think a lot of schools preach family and the family environment. I think you really feel it when you're here. I certainly did when I came in to interview with you guys six months ago. That's the key for us. What Brent has built. We talk about SOUL Mission being the front porch of our program, certainly means a lot to the parents. But you really feel the family here.
Joe Harroz: That's awesome. Joe.
Joe C: I would say an overlook, but you mentioned and referred to it is having a growth mindset, and I believe that is a tradable commodity for us, just like people are looking at this new world of monetization. If our future athletes, current athletes are solely focused on the way they monetize themselves, and I understand we're not naive, that's a factor. But they prioritize that over the transformative opportunity. They're still 18-21 or 22, whatever it is. They're still in a growth period in their life. They haven't made all the mistakes they're going to make. Breaking news, everybody makes mistakes, regardless of the age, but we've got to be able to have that part of our mission. I think that will become a defining competitive edge for the schools that know how to lean into this period of disruption, a growth mindset because, as I said, only a few will have the opportunity to play beyond their college years, but they're all going to have the opportunity to live a great life.
Joe Harroz: That's fantastic. Last substantive question. Let's start with Joe and then go to you, Jim. Let's just project forward to 2035. It's 10 years from now, what do you hope that people say about this era, this massively transitional era in college athletics that we're in right now? What do you hope the big takeaway is?
Joe C: Well, that they recognize that disruption can be a catalyst to the right change to set the future. There's a phrase that floats around in sports that you have to embrace the suck. Can you say that on this podcast? I just did.
Joe Harroz: We actually have the rating to do that.
Jim Nagy: Is that going to be the title of the podcast, the original?
Joe Harroz: That's right. That's what it's going to be.
Joe C: If you want to be about the right change that is sustainable, you got to address the problems. If you continue to push them off, they're always going to be there. That's our problem right now. We will not come together to face this, and it's going to take all sides coming together. I think if we're at 2035 and we haven't fixed that, I'd be really worried about whether college athletics will survive.
Joe Harroz: Just to honestly address the massive changes and address them in a way that's constructive.
Joe C: Absolutely. Disruption can be a catalyst to the positive change if those recognize the opportunity they have.
Joe Harroz: Do you have anything as good as address the suck?
Jim Nagy: No, I don't. I'll back out of this question. No. In 2035, if we can still have the traditions that make college football great, because to me, that's what separates the National Football League and college football. It's just the pageantry, the traditions. Wherever we learned from the business of sports perspective, if we still have maintained that element of it, then, to me, that's successful.
Joe Harroz: That's fascinating. One of the things that we've been in the room for the board of directors meetings for the SEC, and when ESPN, with parent Disney has all the media rights for the SEC, when they talk about this disruptive period, it's interesting. When you ask them what they're most concerned about it, it hits on what both of you said, but it really is this idea of we can't lose the essence of college athletics, which is everything about football, but also everything about the Olympic sports and the women's sports and all that makes college exciting and so important, I think, to the fabric of our country. I don't think that's an overstatement. I want to thank both of you for being guests here. There's only one joke as Dig Lion. Appreciate you so much for being here. Jim, you've already made an unbelievable impact just since February. Grateful to have your friendship and grateful to have your professionalism. You and your team. It's seen every day. For all of us who love this university, it really is. As you can see, it's an extraordinary time to be a Sooner, and those things that have created the Sooner spirit over the last 135 years, I think we're seeing it all in play here. That is leadership and innovation, and it's an exciting time. Thank you all for listening in on conversations with the president, and we'll see you next time, Boomer.
